🇩🇪/🇬🇧 No answer within three years

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Madekozu
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🇩🇪/🇬🇧 No answer within three years

Post by Madekozu » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:50 pm

A small note for support: A possible answer to this question would be, "No, unfortunately I can't help you further". Another possible answer would be, "Yes, you can find this here <link>".

However, not responding to a request for years ... that makes you feel quite "strange" as a user.


Edit Arvid, 2022-05-01:
This posting refers to the topic "Categories Expand for FlatPress??" which remained unanswered for almost three years. I found it reasonable to preserve the following discussion, but without having the original topic bothered. So I felt free to create this dedicated (kind of meta) topic here.

laborix
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Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by laborix » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:11 am

Madekozu wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:50 pm... that makes you feel quite "strange" as a user. ...
Some history:
Flatpress had its heyday between 2007 and 2013, which was also the time when having a blog didn't require much effort. As Twitter, Facebook and the like became more and more current, Flatpress became less and less. In the wake of "mobile first" around 2015, Flatpress almost came to a standstill. With PHP 7.x, the requirements for good source code became more stringent, and it became even quieter.

Then in 2018 the developer's withdrawal from the Flatpress project, see the following Flatpress article:
https://www.flatpress.org/2018/07/06/he ... me-no-see/

The new developer took over the Flatpress project in November 2018 and first steps in January 2019:
https://www.flatpress.org/2019/01/12/current-status/

Flatpress is maintained and developed by one person, but in his spare time.

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Re: Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by Madekozu » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:21 am

Hi Laborix,

I know these problems and also the history of FlatPress, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the point I mentioned - you should find the time for a yes or no in over 2 years. You don't need a large team for this and you need exactly 0 developers. But an answer would show - look, we're still alive.

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Re: Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by laborix » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:06 am

Madekozu wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:21 am... You don't need a large team for this and you need exactly 0 developers. But an answer would show - look, we're still alive. ...
You are free to take over the support for all questions, the Flatpress community would certainly be grateful for this :)
But you also have to invest time for this.

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Re: Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by Madekozu » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:24 am

Warum sollte ich auf alle Fragen antworten? Ja, es braucht Zeit - das ist völlig richtig, aber so etwas weiß man eigentlich, bevor man ein Projekt übernimmt und es entschuldigt immer noch in keiner Weise, das Fragen völlig unbeantwortet bleiben. Wenn ich allein die Energie anschaue, die aufgebracht wird um Gegenargumente zu meinem Hinweis zu bringen - wie solcher Anfragen des Themenerstellers hätte man damit beantworten können.

@designer85
No, unfortunately I don't know where you can get that from either, but you probably don't care much about it by now, I suppose.

Wie viel meiner wertvollen Freizeit ist dafür jetzt verloren gegangen?
Und nochmal - nein - ich werde hier (erstmal?) keinen Support leisten. Es ist für mich viel zu umständlich - ich spreche kein Englisch und nein - es spricht nicht jeder englisch. Ein weitere Punkt warum ich nicht Derjenige bin, der hier Support leisten kann - ich verwende FlatPress seit einer Woche und arbeite mich gerade erst in das System ein. Wenn ich dann solche Antworten auf meine Hinweise bekomme - nein - das motiviert mich ganz sicher nicht hier noch mehr Energie rein zu stecken, tut mir leid. FlatPress ist ein tolles System, hat aber zum Teil gravierende Mängel, obwohl es mit "Das FlatPress-Projekt gibt es seit 2006, die Software ist ausgereift und bestens getestet." beworben wird. Nun - natürlich sind die Glanzzeiten längst vorbei und die Gründe davon sind jedem bekannt, aber das hat doch alles nichts mit einer seit 2 Jahren unbeantworteten Frage zu tun. Wenn das, den Umständen geschuldet, normal sein soll ... dann ist es besser man lässt es ganz bleiben, auch wenn es schade um das wirklich tolle System wäre.

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Re: Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by Arvid » Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:31 pm

Hi,

easy there, it's not as simple as it looks.

First things first: My aim is to answer every single question here on the forum. This one slipped through, which is a pity: The project (and this forum here) relies on happy and thus active users, and that over time they in turn have the motivation to answer other users' questions themselves. So this is what I work on, maybe more than on the code itself: Keeping the community buzzing by making FlatPress more visible to the public, contacting web hosters, software portals, tech magazines. Bigger community then means bigger chance of finding fellow users who want to join the team as coder, tester, supporter ... it's the same old song that is sung by each and any smaller Open Source project.

What is a possible solution here? Well, you might simply have answered the open question. For many requests, you don't need to be a FlatPress expert. (On the other hand, point taken: designer85 might just not be interested in the answer any more.)
If you stumble upon bugs and glitches in FlatPress, I am very happy to be noticed about (via GitHub issue or here on the forum). You did that already and even tried to explore more details about the time zone problem for example - I am very grateful for those details!
I always do my very best to review and fix reported bugs, but you just can't expect this to be done instantly. Still, PHP 8.1 compatibility is a big thing, and more or less invisible to the public, I spent quite some of my time on it. The simple claim "you should invest more time" doesn't create more FlatPress time for me :)

We should not lose sight of our common goal: We all like FlatPress as the independent system it is (otherwise, we would just use another one). So let's use our time to improve it and to support each other. Everyone has something to give: Coding, answering questions on the forum, working on publicity, testing and reporting bugs. (bttr, I'll get to you soon!)

What I offer you with FlatPress for free is the software itself and my heart and soul I put into it.
What we agree on is that this is a huge task for me.
What I kindly ask you for is to support me with your heart and soul.

FlatPress is not me. FlatPress is us all :)

All the best,
Arvid

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Re: Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by Madekozu » Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:19 pm

Und noch einmal: Es geht mir bei diesem Hinweis nicht darum, was hinter den Kulissen passiert und wie viele Leute daran arbeiten, das hat auch nichts mit der Frage des Themenerstellers zu tun. Richtig - eine neue PHP-Version bringt immer Arbeit mit, aber ging es jetzt an irgend einer Stelle darum? Nein - es wird aber wieder mehr Energie für eine Abwehrhaltung aufgebracht, als für eine Antwort auf die eigentliche Frage nötig gewesen wäre.

Andere werden abgewürgt mit "Ach - das waren noch Zeiten als man noch ein freundliches "Hi" zur Begrüßung geschrieben hat". Da ging es um "doppelten Content", genau diesen Fehler, oder eher dieses Problem (ein Fehler ist es ja nicht wirklich) wollte ich auch melden - ich benutze aber vorher die Suche, vielleicht gab es das ja schon. Natürlich kann man den Benutzer darauf hinweisen, vielleicht etwas freundlicher zu sein, aber man kann dennoch auch auf das Problem eingehen. Ich weiß nicht - auf mich wirkt so etwas abschreckend und ich denk mir "Ok, dann eben nicht.", aber - hey - das sollte hier jetzt eigentlich gar nicht so sehr ausarten.

Jetzt lassen wir FlatPress mal beiseite und betrachten nur das Forum als "das einzige Produkt" um das es gerade geht - wie kann da eine Frage "durchrutschen", vor allem wenn man auch Admin und/oder Moderator des Forums ist?
-->> search.php?search_id=unanswered
-->> search.php?search_id=unreadposts

...und wie gesagt - das ist absolut nicht böse gemeint - es ist nur "ein Blick von außen", nicht mehr, aber vor allem auch nicht weniger.
Für mich ist dieses Thema durch und von mir kommt zu diesen Thema auch nichts mehr. Sollte allerdings meine "Kritik", wenn man es so nennen will, nicht als ernst (und auch gut) gemeinter Hinweis verstanden werden und du dich angegriffen fühlen, dann bitte alle meine Beiträge und meinen Account löschen, weil dann bin ich hier leider falsch.

Sollte allerdings der Gedanke da sein "Hmm, da könnte was dran sein, was Made da mal wieder zusammen faselt", dann hat mein Wink zum Ziel gefühlt und du kannst das Thema ruhig wieder aufräumen, weil - das bringt den Fragesteller ja nicht weiter.

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Re: Categories Expand for FlatPress??

Post by Arvid » Sun May 01, 2022 1:32 pm

Hi, thanks for your input. I'll keep my answer in English in order to maintain transparency for our non-germanophonic readers.
Madekozu wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:19 pmAndere werden abgewürgt mit "Ach - das waren noch Zeiten als man noch ein freundliches "Hi" zur Begrüßung geschrieben hat". Da ging es um "doppelten Content", genau diesen Fehler, oder eher dieses Problem (ein Fehler ist es ja nicht wirklich) wollte ich auch melden
I was, frankly spoken, quite pissed about the attitude of the posting. Considering everything I've written before about what I and all the other project participants volunteer to put into FlatPress, "not worth a penny" and "fix it" is just not the way I want to be addressed here.

I most likely just forgot to answer designer85. And it's constructive to point this out to me. I am a little annoyed about this because my goal is that exactly this does not happen. And the SEO topic? Well, I am glad someone not just plainly dissing me is telling me this really is a problem, and I opened an issue for that.

Madekozu wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:19 pmals ernst (und auch gut) gemeinter Hinweis
Just to be clear: This is exactly how I read your lines.


I split the original topic so this discussion here has its own. And it's worth to be discussed, since the expectations in what an open source project has to deliver vary widely - so here we have a place to talk. In a constructive manner, without plain disses :)

All the best,
Arvid

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Re: 🇩🇪/🇬🇧 No answer within three years

Post by Madekozu » Sun May 01, 2022 2:31 pm

Well, I'll let Google easily translate my answer into English ;)

As for the not so nice colleague and his hint - yes, especially with something like that you sometimes need a thick skin and I thought the people from the "Ruhrpott" (region in Germany) are used to a harder tone ;)
Well, here at my house it's "Not enough scolding is enough praise" and in my business field you're always just "the one who doesn't have a clue anyway" or "just a stupid craftsman" - I hear that almost every day, but I know my customers then don't just leave me there, turn around and leave just because they didn't rub my stomach. If something doesn't work, then it's just "What shit have you built there again", even if it was just a mistake by the operator (customer).

It's the same with FlatPress. People throw it on, have previously read something about mature and extensively tested and then one error after the other jumps out at them - that's stupid - for both sides. A user is also a customer, even if he doesn't pay anything for it - if something doesn't work, then he's dissatisfied, if he's dissatisfied he either throws the thing in the garbage or he lets out his frustration and shouts it into the forum das die Hütte wobbles. What's better now? He wouldn't have said anything and opted for a different product, or - he complains, but at least you know why he's using something else - I think the latter is better.

My enthusiasm for FlatPress has also taken a hit and I make no secret of it. I got to know a support "as non-existent" - not only for the current question, but also for other topics. Don't be surprised if I always talk about customers - that just makes it easier for me to explain and it's nothing else. By "non-existent" I mean something like this: You walk into a shop - a good example is a hardware store - has a question about a product (here FlatPress) and far and wide there is no one to be seen ... you hear its echo - nothing more . You point out this fact and get the answer "This is done in your free time", "The changes made by PHP 8 are enormous". If something like that is put forward as a reason for something that has nothing to do with either of them, then it just gets difficult. As a customer, you then think to yourself - ok, they're overwhelmed or don't see through at all - just get out, nothing sensible can happen here. But exactly this image should never be conveyed, since it does not correspond to the truth - the customer just does not see it. In my professional field there is a lot of planning, orders, currently delivery bottlenecks - my customer doesn't see any of that either, he only sees - I pull up with a toolbox, do something that he can't or doesn't want to do and then disappear again. He doesn't see that I drove around forever to get the stuff together that I need from him, he also doesn't see what I have to do afterwards when I'm away from him again. He only sees the brief moment that I am with him. Here at FlatPress, that's when I ask a question and get an answer. I don't see anything else, just the time I was here and what I got - nothing more.

Now not everyone is like that - yells in a forum and disappears again, that should be clear at the latest with the length of my posts. I've discovered FlatPress for myself and I'm tearing the thing apart into all its components. I've spent the last few days fixing a lot of the bugs and dangers (to users' wallets) that got in the way for me to use it and beating the thing up to do what I want and do it that way , how I want it. The downside is of course - I can only do this for myself at first, since my customizations are no longer compatible with the official FlatPress version. I turned the Leggero template inside out, put the CSS through the meat grinder, threw out all the plugins that aren't error-free - yes - it's lost a bit, but it works and you can even run it through a validator without the white one Waving the flag and heading into the weekend. If I don't find any more major errors, I look deeper into the FlatPress gears and maybe also track down the errors that have already been reported and those I have also found (such as parser errors with the Atom feed, GDPR-related dangers for the purse, the annoying time issue (which has caused problems with almost every system so far - even with the big ones), template errors, etc.). I'll announce what's easy to fix in the official FlatPress version as soon as I've tested it and have the time - otherwise my own page is of course in the foreground ... and now the translator is full.

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Re: 🇩🇪/🇬🇧 No answer within three years

Post by Arvid » Sun May 01, 2022 6:35 pm

Madekozu wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:31 pmA user is also a customer, even if he doesn't pay anything for it
This is where I fundamentally disagree with you.

For a paying customer, the expectations of the product or the service are set in the contract between seller and buyer. It's the customer's right to simply demand fullfilment - or to have the price reduced or refunded.

Open Source software like FlatPress is very different to this. There is no payment and no contract a user could derive any claims from. FlatPress is offered free of charge under the terms of the General Public License, which even has a dedicated paragraph to point that out ("no warranty, offered 'as is'"). I am in no way obligated to provide any bugfixes or support whatsoever, but of course I give my best to do so.

Entering the support forum, ranting FlatPress is "not worth a penny" and demanding to "fix it", is just grossly rude. I have no motivation to offer my time to such people. I do not want my efforts to be praised, but at least appreciated.

That in mind, the FlatPress support forum is not a commercial hardware store with staff at your service all the time. Maybe imagine it more like a self-help workshop - come in, introduce yourself, meet like-minded people and find solutions to your problems together. The "owner" will gladly help with his experience whereever he can.

Madekozu wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:31 pmI'll announce what's easy to fix in the official FlatPress version as soon as I've tested it and have the time
This is the FlatPress spirit. I'd be very happy to receive your improvements, feel free to do so via Pull Request on GitHub, or on any other way. Thank you very much :)


All the best,
Arvid

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